Reverse Pyramid Training & Leangains
This routine is not for people that are new to barbell training. For the reasons why see here. If you can’t be bothered to read that and just want a more suitable program try this. If you’re not sure whether you should be on the “Big 3″ or “Split” or think you need to something somewhere between the two then see Progressing from ‘The Big 3′ to the ‘Split’. Thank you.
There are four key exercises: Squats, Deadlifts, Benchpress, and Chins. If you think you can’t get big with these four, have a look at the guy above.
The Press and Weighted Dips are great exercises also, and can be substituted in a program for the Benchpress, however for simplicity I will outline the method used to create the incredible physique you see above.
The principles of Reverse Pyramid Training are:
- Do warm-up sets gradually working up to around 80% of your ‘top set’ load.
- Put the heaviest working set first.
- Drop the weight, rest and do the second working set.
- Drop the weight, rest and do the third working set.
- Rest and move onto the next exercise.
Tips:
- Go to failure on your ‘top-set’. For the ‘back-off’ sets, go one rep short of failure, but still push yourself REALLY HARD.
- Drop the weights by 10-15% each time.
- When you can reach the top of your decided rep range for a given exercise, move the weight up the next week.
- Time your rest intervals and keep it strict.
- Don’t train to failure on chin/pull-ups*.
*This is the biggest problem I see with pull ups. Everyone goes to failure on every set… …The form gets worse and worse and worse, and they keep going and going and going, climbing up the invisible ladder, swinging and kipping. When you do this you get no stronger. And most of the time you get weaker. The negative effect of training to failure is seen more on chin ups than any other exercise. No one knows why this is, but trust me, that’s how it is.
Advice of veteran strength coach Jason Ferruggia. Full article on improving pull-ups here.
When on a cut, hitting it hard but keeping it simple is key so as not to overtax the already stressed CNS. So we’re going to keep it to four key exercises.
With reference to those that complicate training matters with a very large number of exercises, or hit the same muscle group from four different angles in a session, I think Martin Berkhan said it best in a recent tweet,
“Consistent use of the squat, deadlift, bench-press & chins are the only cure for fuckarounditis. Just look at these for shits & giggles.”
.
He doesn’t do abdominal or bicep work, built his with squats and chin-ups.
A 3-day-split can work particularly well and may look something like this:
Monday
1. Deadlift
- Warm-up sets
- Top Set 4-6reps
3mins rest - Set 2 (-10-15%) 6-8
2mins rest - Set 3 (-10-15%) 8-10
3mins rest
2. Weighted Chin-Ups*
- Warm-up sets
- Top Set 6-8reps
3mins rest - Set 2 (-10-15%) 8-10
2mins rest - Set 3 (-10-15%)10-12
3mins rest
Cooldown 5-10mins cardio, stretch.
Wednesday
1. Bench
- Warm-up sets
- Top Set 6-8reps
3mins rest - Set 2 (-10-15%) 8-10
2mins rest - Set 3 (-10-15%)10-12
3mins rest
2. Push-ups (2 sets, 3 mins rest. Raise feet off floor when too easy. 15-20reps)
Cooldown 5-10mins cardio, stretch.
Friday
1. Squat
- Warm-up sets
- Top Set 6-8reps
3mins rest - Set 2 (-10-15%) 8-10
2mins rest - Set 3 (-10-15%)10-12
3mins rest
*Always keep a full range, keep it slow and smooth. Chin-ups may be very tough at first, that’s fine. If chinning is tough at the start, jump up and hold in the top position for as long as you can and fight gravity all the way down to the bottom. Do this several times. You will still get a training effect and combined with the weight loss you will gradually work towards full sets of chins. Palms facing, shoulder width please. Band-assisted chin-ups are another good option until you have built up the strength to do full-reps.
Pull-downs are not as effective as chin-ups so do not use them if you have a chinning-bar available. In my experience people work a lot harder when then have to do chin-ups rather than pull-downs, probably because they don’t want to be seen to fail.
So how do I adjust the weight the next time then?
Let’s say that this week 7 reps with 100kg an your target rep range was 6-8. The next week you’re going to stay with 100kg and try and hit 8 reps. If you do that then increase the weight slightly (102.5kg) and try and get 6 reps or more.
How what about the back-off sets? Do I always do 15% less than the top set?
No absolutely not. I shudder to think of you walking round with a calculator in the gym. The “-15% guide” is just for your first workout. From that point onward you want to adjust your back-off sets independently as you would for that top set.
An example of a squat progression with target rep ranges 6-8, 8-10, 10-12:
Week 1: 150 x 6, 135 x 9, 120 x 12
Week 2: 150 x 8, 135 x 10, 125 x 10
Week 3: 155 x 6, 140 x 8, 125 x 11
Week 4: 155 x 6, 140 x 10, 125 x 11
Week 5: 155 x 8, 145 x 8, 125 x 12
Week 6: 160 x 6, 145 x 9, 130 x 10
Note that some weeks the person went up in weight in the back-off sets but not in the “top-set” and vice versa. This is normal.
The Warm-Up is an often neglected yet critical part of your training. Get on a treadmill until you’re in a slight sweat, do a joint warm-up (0′:25″-2′:30″), then do an exercise specific warm-up*.
*Always start with the bar. Perform the warm-up reps as you would your heaviest set. Take it very seriously, you’re preparing your nervous system and motor function for the big set. I usually do 3-4 warm-up sets, but do as many as it takes to feel comfortable. Do 5-6 reps, working up to about 80% of your top-set weight. Then have 3 minutes rest before the top-set.
For squats I usually do:
(Bar x5) x5 sets, 25% x5, 40% x5, 60% x5, (70% x 3), 80% x2, (80% x1) if I feel the need to remind myself how light that bastard is.) 3 minutes rest then do the top set. Warmed-up but not tired.
Final words of advice
- Don’t forget the importance of form.
- Work yourself gradually into it. Think of training like a suntan, you don’t take all the sun at once, and you must not grind yourself into the ground on your first session either.
- Get 8 hours sleep.
- An extra day of rest is more valuable than an extra day of training.
Further Reading & Introducing some world-class mentors
Martin Berkhan wrote an excellent article on RPT. It can be found here.
‘Starting Strength‘ by Mark Rippetoe is a great book to teach you about form. Here’s Rippetoe’s video lectures:
Here is an excellent, comprehensive guide to squatting, including video, by Robertson Training Systems.
‘Beyond Brawn‘ by Stuart McRobert one of the best training books I’ve ever read. It will teach you how to program your own routine, and does a great job of explaining why abbreviated training routines work best for the average, non-drug taking guy.
Jason Ferruggia’s ‘Renegade Strength & Conditioning‘ site has taught me a lot about bodyweight training, correct form to protect the shoulders when working out, and generally has some really great training tips. He’s got a lot of hands on experience with clients and knows what he’s talking about.
Hi Andrew,
Is this the type of Program you used, and did you use some assistance exercise?
Followed it to the letter.
I messed around with lunges too on the squat day but just one set of 40 strides. Not sure if this helped or hindered things though. I ended up jacking it in half way through due to soreness, probably unnecessary soreness.
I did do rotator cuff stabilization work for a slightly injured shoulder. This consisted of medium-weight Turkish Get-Ups once a week as well as a lot of band work and stretching. But insignificant to the overall transformation.
Thanks for the question.
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for posting this RPT page. I refer to your page for everything from diet or workout, but previously relied on Martin’s post at LeanGains and FreeTheAnimal. Nice to have it here, too. I’ll post separate questions instead of making one long comment…
Thank Yous: 1. I got that chinups are better than pullups, but missed the point about not going to failure from JF – thanks for including that.
2. Wasn’t doing warmups, thanks for mentioning 3-4 warmups approaching 80%.
3. Thanks for mentioning that sometimes you need an extra day of rest too.
Questions in my next post…
22.
I wasn’t doing warmups because of how I interpreted a comment from Martin on FreeTheAnimal “What’s the point of half-assing it with two easy sets which leaves you semi-fatigued so that you can never get one truly good set in?”
I took this to mean I should just go straight to my heaviest workset (rather than risk being fatigued by lower weight sets), so…
Why is it okay to do warmup sets, if we want to have enough energy to lift as much or more than the last workout? (I think it’s because the < 90% won't fatigue but curious of your opinion)
Certainly this is not what he meant. What he was referring to was Pyramid Training where he argues people tire themselves out before hitting the top set.
If you’re target is an 8 rep top set (8rep max), do warm-up sets to 70-80% of the 8rep max, with lower reps in those sets (4-5) and then rest 3 minutes before the top set.
Thanks Andy, so the “half-assing it with two easy sets” is doing 1. same # of reps as top set 2. more than 80% of top set 3. not resting before top set. Do I have that right?
Yes. You can’t put rules on it, but that’s a general guide. It all comes down to this:
If you ‘warm-up’ so much that you fatigue yourself and have less than a maximal top-set, it’s gone too far.
REPS:
is 3 x 6-12 (3 sets: max 6-8 rep, -10% 8-10 rep, -10% 10-12 rep) for deads, chins, and bench, BUT…
Your example (I know it’s just an example
the example I saw on LeanGains was Deads 2 x 3-5, Chins 3 x 4-6 (or 2 x 4-6 weighted followed by 1 x 10-12 bodyWeight), and Bench 3 x 8-12.
Also Martin says on FreeTheAnimal he had Richard do Benches of 2 x 6-8 (He mentions Benches are higher reps because approaching failure on Bench is not effective as approaching failure on Deads), and he mentions that Chins are best trained weighted in the 4-6 range, SO…
I’m wondering why you reference 6-12, as opposed to 3-5, 4-6, and 6-8 (I”m wondering if it’s because A. the blog is for Beginners B. 6-12 makes more sense with lower weights C. Viewers are more focused on fat loss than muscle gain D. 3-4 Reps is reserved for breaking plateus after Back-Cycling? (Martin mentions, “up the weight by 2.5% and continue doing that until the 3-4 rep range depending on movement. Back-cycle to the 6-9 rep range and start the cycle over again)
I’m curious about your perspective on this
3-5 is approaching 1-rep-max weights. I fear that there will be many people that take this to mean “Do Three Reps!” and then get all 3 of those reps with terrible form on a weight they can’t truly handle, risking unjust somewhere down the line.
If you do a 6-8 rep range, you can’t cheat them all. Personally I use 6-8 for everything as written above. It’s working so I’m continuing with it.
More experienced people will just go with what they know works for them.
3-5 range requires good form, or else pointless – I agree Thanks
3-DAY SPLIT CYCLE:
) you mention 3 days / week Deads on Mondays and Squats on Fridays (4 days from Deads to Squats, then 3 days from Squats to Deads; and 7 days from Deads to Deads, as well as 7 days from Squats to Squats), BUT…
In your example (again just an exampple I know
Martin (again from what I saw on LeanGains and FreeTheAnimal) suggests Dead Lifts be done equal OR LESS THAN once per week. He mentions that his past cycles have included deads/squats once per 8-10 day cycle; and actually states that they should not be done more than once per 8-14 day cycle. SO…
Was the split you suggested just a snapshot of an 8-14 days cycle, or actually suggesting a 7 day cycle?
Martin does mention that hitting legs and lower back every 4 days works for his clients, but… that’s in the context of the time between squats and deads – NOT squats to squats or deads to deads, as far as I can tell.
Right now my workouts are Sun, Tue, and Thu (2-3 days between workouts), but since I don’t attach moves to days, I get 4-5 days from Squats to Deads and from Deads to Squats. That also means I get 9-10 days between my Deads, and 9-10 days between my Squats. This is how it looks:
Sun Deads, Tue Bench, Thu Squats, Sun Bench, Tue Deads, Thu Bench, Sun Squats, Tue Bench, Thu Deads, Sun Bench, etc.
Some times I replace Benches with Dips to add more days between repeating the movement.
So I’m curious if you do similar or are suggesting a 7 day cycle? (If so I would guess, it’s for the same reasons I posted in my REPS question – Beginners, Lower weights, etc.) Looking forward to your clarification!
I suggest a 7 days cycle for two very good reasons.
1. It requires less thinking. As most people do the IF and cycle calories too, a weekly cycle mean that it’s easier for people to keep track (Monday will always be the same meals), gym holidays can be planned around and don’t interrupt the training cycle, and regular weekly events (dinner’s out) can be planned for in a clients diet.
A longer cycle can be confusing, which can cause frustration and isn’t sustainable. I try and plan everything out to work for the long-term for people.
2. I think it allows sufficient rest* for most people . Advances trainees may need further rest but less advanced people doing this would just be training possible sub-optimally. An 8 day> cycle is targeted at those people.
(*For Deadlift and Squat recovery times I think in terms of recovery of the weakest part i.e. the lower back. Squat is less taxing on the lower back than Deadlift, hence the 3 days rest after squats and 4 day rest after the DL.)
Tha’ts smart to do what’s most sustainable and sensible for most people. I think I got a good compromise between cycling and resting by keeping my exercise/hi carb days the same every week, while replacing/postponing squat/deads with upper body when needed.
My hamstring muscles (semitendinosus area) are still aching (from my first non-machine Deadlifts 4 days ago), so I postponed today’s scheduled squats ’til my next exercise day, pretty simple. But to make use of those carbs I did an upper body workout (chins, pushups)
Smart move.
People. Listen to this man.
Regarding bench press: At times I am unable to find a spotter to help me during my top set, would an alternative to the barbell bench be the dumbbell bench?
Also
If dumbell is a good alternative is there anything to watch out for in regard to form?
Important point to remember when Benching is this: you fail when you cannot get the last rep with perfect form. This means no butt off bench, no one shoulder higher than the other, all perfect reps.
A spotter should be there for when you fail that last rep only, and give just enough assistance to enable you to complete it with proper form. Too many times, spotters are used to force out multiple reps that do nothing but give the spotter a deadliest workout. For times that you may not have a spotter, for that last rep, if you do miss it with perfect form, lifting your butt off the bench and using less than perfect form could be used to complete that last rep. (This rep doesn’t count and shouldn’t be written down in your log though.) Perfect form is there to keep you safe and free of injury however, so don’t make this a regular thing.
No safety rack/pins you can set and use?
Pro’s and con’s of using DB instead of BB. DBs allow for a more natural path of motion as your hands are not fixed in position (they can be easier on the shoulder and elbow joints), but don’t allow for the smaller % incremental jumps when moving up in weight that the Bench does.
The DBs are also difficult to get in position when lifting very heavy, and if you don’t have a spotter you may injure yourself by extending the rage of motion too greatly.
If you decide to go with the bench and have no safety rack/pins, use the power rack. I’ve read advice to don’t use collars. Then if you miss your last rep you can rest the bar on your chest and dump the weights off either side. Not ideal though, and a bit dangerous. A last resort.
I sometimes do weighted dips and standing overhead dumbell raises instead of bench press. Scooby’s Workshop doesn’t do bench press at all (and his pecs are massive)… he stresses squeezing over pushing movements, using dumbelll flys, dumbell press, incline versions, and variations of pushups.
I personally do Bench press followed by pushups or dips. but what Andy said about people using too much weight, losing form, and losing results seems to be ESPECIALLY TRUE with the bench press.
In my personal cycle right now, I only do dips and the press. You can substitute these two for the bench and still develop your chest. When this cycle ends, I will probably go back to bench for a cycle.
Please remember that while Scooby’s site is an awesome valuable source of information, and one that we should be grateful he has taken the time to write, he’s been writing the site for a long while, which means he suffers from the same problem the magazines suffer -how to keep things new and interesting (to sell magazines and keep blog followers coming back), when there isn’t really any additional information that will help people achieve their goals.
While yes, he may do all those variations for chest, they are not all necessary in one program, and most people would get better results picking two, focusing hard on improving in those specific strength areas, and keeping to that, rather than screwing around half-heartedly in 5 variations.
Scooby is absolutely right however, the bench press isn’t necessary to build a chest. (But let’s not forget the Bench-Press is not just a chest exercise.) Pushup variations will take you far, and Jason Ferruggia is a big fan of these.
Just to make this absolutely clear, choose your 3-6 exercises and focus on them and NOTHING else for the time being. Don’t keep changing things from workout to workout.
My current cycle is: Squat, Deadlift, Chins, Press, Dips. Thats it.
Andy, what assistance would you add to the above for mass gains? I understand the rational behind the template for cutting and retaining mass, but it seems a little low on volume for getting bigger?
Less is more, I throughly believe that. This is not just my opinion, but that of Martin Berkhan who trains one in three days and also Stuart McRobert -author of Beyond Brawn. Martin says he throws in some calf raises and tricep presses on top of the above, but I think that’s it.
Top set – to failure. What if i cant bench for my last 3 rep of my top set, supposedly I am doing 8,10,12? Should i reduce?
So you got 9, and your target range for your last set was 10-12 then right? If it’s just one rep don’t bother, you will probably get it next week. If it’s three short of the bottom number in the range then yes, reduce.
Day 1 (Monday)
Deadlift 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps reverse pyramid style -2 sets of warm up with 50-60% of first set weight
Rest 5-10 mins.
Chins – Same as deadlifts
Pendlay Rows – 3×5 x 3 sets
Day 3 (Wednesday)
Bench press 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps reverse pyramid style – 2 sets of warm up with 50-60% of first set weight
Rest 5-10 mins
Weighted Pull-ups 2-3 sets of 3-5
Rest 5-10 mins
Day 5 (Friday)
Squats 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps reverse pyramid style – 2 sets of warm up with 50-60% of first set weight
Rest 5-10 mins.
Overhead Press 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps reverse pyramid style – 2 sets of warm up with 50-60% of first set weight
Rest 5-10 mins
So far I noticed progress with every exercise, I was able to either add weight or add one more rep.
I also noticed that my sets usually go like this:
1 – 3-4 reps
2 – 5-6 reps
3 – 6-8 reps
So i guess I am getting bit of everything.
I also noticed that the warm ups can affect the first real set.
If I put like 70-80% in the warm up, then my 1st set suffers right away, so I try to do lighter warm ups. So far, I love it. It is short, I see progress, and I don’t have to spend 1H in the gym.
One day is usually around 35min.
Thanks again for info. You put it in simple words!!!
Andy, do you think the routine above is OK or too much?
What is you opinion?
I copied that routine from the fuckarounds post.
Looks fine to me. If you stop making progress, and you’re having sufficient rest an calories then drop stuff out.
After two months of doing above I noticed that I got stocked on the squat. I progressed from 215×3 to 215×5 but I have days when I can only do 4 reps. In case of the dead lift I went from 305×4 to 305×6, but once I was able to get that 6th rep all of my other workouts during the week suffered. Is it possible that energy used to do that 6th rep can influence rest. Also, because my squat started to suffer I am thinking if should I switch to 8rep range or do it every 2 weeks? What do you think?
Thank you again.
You’re on a deficit. you should expect your strength gains to stall. Keep with the current rep range, do RPT. When you move to a slow bulk then you can get stronger.
thx Andy, I am on RPT. I will continue doing what i do as you said.
Firstly thanks for clearing up that warm ups are okay for deads, squats, bench. Since then I’ve been doing warmup sets up to 80% lb x (less than top set minimum reps)… and increasing Personal Record each week.
Now I might be screwing up the other side of the workout though LOL
Coming back down the pyramid on Benches recently, I’ve reduced by 10% 4 reps, again 8 reps, again 9 reps, again 9 reps, before moving to pushups… so that’s 4 sets after already doing warmups and 2 top sets.
Same with Squats recently after warmups and 2 top sets, I’ve reduced by 10% 8 reps, again 9, again 7, again 7, before moving to chins… so that’s 4 sets after already doing warmups and 2 top sets again.
In Martin’s recent post FAI http://www.leangains.com/2011/09/fuckarounditis.html point #3 “You don’t plan for progress”, He uses this example:
“Squat: 200 x 6-8 x 2.
Set 1: 200 x 8
Rest 3-5 mins. Reduce the load by 10% for the second set.
Set 2: 180 x 8 (however many reps you can get)”
THE QUESTION: Warmups aside, if I’m doing 4 to 5 reduced sets after my top set, am I doing too much?
In reading Martin’s the Coaching Paradox, and “HOw people fail New Years Resolutions” http://www.leangains.com/2009/01/how-people-fail-their-new-years.html I felt like he was talking about me in point #2 “Being Impatient…” should I limit the post maximum sets to 1 or 2? Thanks
Never mind Andy, I double-checked LeanGains site, and saw the answer:
No more than 3 sets per core move (not counting warmups)
- so that’s target plus 1 or 2 reduced sets then stop
He also mentions:
deads: on follow-up sets, only go up to target set # of reps +1 (not more)
squat: on follow-ups, go past target set # of reps as much as you can
What do you think about substituting weighted dips for pushups? Would that be too much tricep focus in one day?
Dips will hit your triceps more than pushups mate.
Hi Andy,
Thanks for all the help and advice you give us. Do you have any substitutions for deadlifts and squats for someone that has lower back pain?
Here’s a good article by JC Deen that you might find useful. http://www.wannabebig.com/training/getting-big-without-the-big-three/
I had a PT session with Dorian Yates back in February. Still a big, big dude, as were most of the guys down in his basement gym.
Thanks Andy! That article is exactly what I needed.
Welcome bro.
Hey Andy, I stumbled upon your site reading up on IF. I do not see any “shoulder” workout in the workout you posted. Do you believe overhead press is not needed or is the bench providing enough shoulder workout?
Yes it’s generally considered unnecessary to do direct shoulder work and can leave you with healthier shoulders in the long run, if the Deadlift and Bench are performed correctly.
Andy –
In the programming chapter of Starting Strength, Rippetoe writes about an A/B routine.
A: Squat/Bench/Deads
B: Squat/Press/Power Clean.
To quote from page 289 in my copy: “Essentially, you squat every workout and alternate the bench press and press, and the deadlift and power clean. This schedule is for three days per week, allowing a two-day rest at the end of the week. It will mean that one week you press and power clean twice, and the next week bench and deadlift twice.”
Now, I recognize that the A/B thing is a lot to think about, and that your Three Day Split RPT is much easier to remember and follow consistently. However, how do you explain the difference between your recommendation to train each exercise once a week and Rippetoe’s recommendation to train each exercise multiple times a week (w/ squats at the front of EVERY work out)?
Believe me, I prefer the Three Day Split, but just curious.
Thanks,
Adam
Ah the reason for the difference is simple. SS Is a more taxing routine, thus I would not recommend it on a cut.
Nothing to do with simplicity.
Squatting 3 days a week when cutting is not a good idea. When you progress to slow-bulk then by all means give it a go Adam.
In the above sample 3-day split where would you put the dips?
Bench day.
Are the exercises in big split routine enough to build bigger shoulders for somebody who is narrower? Would it be smart to add some extras line lateral rise, plate rises after the shoulder press workout? Again, this is for somebody who has much smaller frame.
Those three exercises hit everything.
so in your opinion all those three exercises will create a perfect wide shoulders and no extra effort is necessary? I asked that cause I used to do the Adonis Workouts where the main point was to make sure the shoulders get wide while the waist gets narrow to create nice proportions and look.
Google “powerlifter” in images and look at the guys that compete in a weight-class category. (i.e. not the fat guys.) Have a look at their shoulders. If you’re not happy then feel free to throw some presses in there.
Hmm, so what is your take on those who say that big 3 lifts will create big butt and big tights and will not build proportional body. Yes the pictures on your site prove the opposite , but I wonder what is your world on ? Also after googling the “powerlifter” I mostly get those huge not attractive phisique photos.
I think I’ve stated pretty clearly what my opinion is on this. Throw some direct shoulder work in there if you wish. As with everything, try it and see how your body responds.
Hi Andy, decide to ask here since I couldn’t write in your Fitocracy page
First I’d like to thank you for your awesome site. Stumbled here couple of days ago from Dick Talens link if I remember correctly and I’ve read everything. I started LeanGains maybe a week ago but your simple macro counting article helped me alot and I think I know now what and how much I need to eat. So thanks a bunch!
I’ve been doing StrongLifts 5×5 for about a month now and just now I read in your traingin article that I shouldn’t do that (or SS) because they are not for cutting individual. Previously I wasn’t going to do a cut until later but after reading through your site I guess its for the best. I’m fairly lean otherwise but I got fat in stomach and sides that I want to get rid of ASAP.
I posted this in Fitocracy earlier today, before reading about RPT or Big 3 here:
“Thought I’d post some stats from my lifts and ask around for opinions/advice. I’m 185cm tall and weight 79kg.
My weights are these as of today:
Squat 62,5kg
Bench Press 45kg
Overhead Press 37,5kg
Pendlay Row 55kg
Deadlift 90kg
I’m struggling a bit with Overhead Press, I’m not able to do it with perfect form as I have to push a bit with my knees. Pendlay Row is another where I have problems since I can’t do it with good form either anymore. I basically lift my chest up when pulling and drop it to touch the bar.”
As you can see, I can’t keep up with the Press and Row and part of that must be because I’m not eating that many calories atm. Now I know that what I have been doing might not be the best thing to do while on the cut.
I calculated my macros with the Google Doc spreadsheet that someone posted and they are like this:
T-day: 2 548,90
R-day:1 506,17
I eat +180g protein a day and I think I’ve been pretty close to these numbers in the past few days that I started taking more care in what I eat.
But for my question:
So I should be doing the Big 3 workout with RPT style but how? In the article on this page you recommend doing Mon DL + Chin up, Wed Bench and Fri Squat. But on the other article (http://rippedbody.jp/the-big-3-routine/) you advice to do them all 3 times a week. So which should I do?
And I don’t have acces to a spotter so I probably can’t do the first set to failure like you suggest. Should I care about this?
1. How do I let people write on my Fitocracy page? Is that an ‘opt in’ thing?
2. Welcome mate, glad you’re finding it useful.
3. I’d ditch the press and row and concentrate on the others till you finish your cut.
4. Do whichever your body can handle. More advanced people require more recovery time. I’ve explained in more detail on the main training page how to choose.
5. Go to the point of failure of form, then stop a rep short.
Cheers Olli!
Thanks for the answers Andy. I’ll take your advice and concentrate on the big movements until my cut is finished. Then I’ll see what I’ll do afterwards
I’m not sure if there’s some option to let people write on your Fitocracy page. Atleast I can’t find anything related to that in the settings page.
Continuing my IF-diet, hopefully I’ll start seeing some changes soon even though it’s just the beginning
Did a workout with this new routine today. Luckily my points didn’t drop too much so I can keep on leveling
If you want to check it out:
http://www.fitocracy.com/profile/despire/
The winner is he who gets the most change for the least points, no?
Cool, good luck man. Remember, less is more.
Rather than just the scale, the mirror and cameraphone snap, strength tracking, and tape measure are your 3 new friends.
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Hi Andy,
What are your opinions about this video? It’s basically all about chin-up progression and its different variations.
(spoiler: One variation includes kipping chins, but I’m definitely avoiding that.)
My school gym apparently owns the exact same platforms that were used in this video, so I was thinking of using them the next time I hit the gym.
-Nathan
There is a huge gaping hole in that method of chins. -You will use your legs, whether consciously or not, to help yourself up when the going gets tough, and thus cheat yourself. Stick to the band-assisted chin-ups, you can’t cheat.
Seriously, I go to gym just to squat?
Maybe I’m better of doing SS.
If you’re new to barbell training then you definitely are better off not just doing squats alone. SS or ‘The Big 3 Routine’ will do well for you. I wrote how to decide in detail here. Sorry if you missed that part, I need to make it clearer, so thanks for the feedback.
Well, it’s probably my fault for skimming through things.
I’ve trained with SS and then Lyle McDonald’s bulking brosplit soon 1.5 years now. Might give RPT a try though.
If you’re making good progress then stick with what you have. If you’re time-strapped or haven’t been making progress then sure, let me know how you get on Raine.
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Hi, Andy!
In SS I should drop 10% from the bar if I can’t add weight three workouts in a row.
And what about stalling in RPT?
If you’re on a cut then it’s to be expected so change nothing. If you’re not, then you can try do the same as with SS.
I find it hard to combine weighted chinups with deadlifts on same workout as they are both an intense grip pull exercise…
I start with deadlifts, and my grip is left weak for the chinups which robs you of strength and progress.
Do the chinups with bench or squat day.
my 2 cents
Hi Andy — for someone like me approaching the final phase of their diet, how beneficial/hindering do you think a complete form reset would be? I’m thinking about taking down my weights and getting my form perfect. Maybe this should wait until my lean bulk?
As long as the way you’re doing things is not damaging at the moment then don’t do it. We need to lift heavy right now. Probably best to wait.
Not damaging at all
Form is good, but not great. Will stick to the plan, lift heavy, and we’ll fix once I slow bulk.
p.s. First day of diet adjustment. Perfect macros and not hungry. Dehydrated mashed potatoes for the win.
Dehydrated mashed potatoes…?! Sucks to be working 80 hour weeks running a start-up eh?
Hey Adam, thanks for all the great info. There are so many sites with info but your site seems to contain the most easy the access / simplified guide.
I’ve been trying to lose fat while doing a similar RPT style 3 day split but with a lot more secondary exercises. I’m going to simplify it and go with your layout and really focus on the main exercises.
I just have 1 quick question: do you program in any planned refeeds or do you think the carb/calorie cycling is enough?
Thanks
The carb cycling is enough to keep away the need for re-feeds. This is not to be confused with a diet break however. People do sometimes need those, but that’s something for google or reading a Lyle McDonald book.
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Hey Adam, can I train like this with RPT?
Thursday, Friday, Sunday, rest days, repeat.
Yes. But you’re best reading both Starting Strength and Beyond Brawn so you know why and can make decisions for yourself once you stall etc.
Hey Adam, I’m looking to try this simplified approach and I was wondering how you progress with pushups. Do you increase the reps or do different variations?
Any links with more detail on progressing with pushups would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Who’s Adam?
lol. I just looked at the above comment and saw Adam.
Try this: http://jasonferruggia.com/?s=pushups
Also put our feet on a box and work up towards a full handstand press. One handed pushups for when you get god-like.
Andy ,
Firslty thank you for a great site and also spending the time to reply to these questions.
For personal reasons at home I only get to train twice a week.
How would you arrange the above split into twosessions?
Again , thank you for all of your time and effort.
Matt
Thanks Matt, it really varies for the individual but as a base, presuming you’re cutting I’d probably try something like this:
Monday: Deadlift Chins
Thursday: Squats Bench
Thanks for coming back so soon. Im actually skinny-fat. Ive lost two stone though because i was skinny balloon.
Ive fumbled around in the dark with weights for so long and im only finally armed with the knowledge to do this right.
Im gonna throw some presses in on squats day too and work my ass off as hard as i can. Hopefully ill have some 12 week transformation pictures worthy of showing.
Thanks again Andy and good luck in your new endeavours.
Andy,
I wrote the above straight after my deadlifts and I clearly wasn’t as articulate as I normally am. I guess deadlifts take us back to a more primordial way of thinking?
What I was trying to say was, no, I’m not technically on a cut, but I’m not technically on a bulk either. I’m 11.5 Stone at 17% body fat, and most of that is gut and chest. I have very skinny legs and arms.
I’m hoping the above exercise split coupled with IF will give me the best of both worlds in terms of strength and muscle gain and fat loss.
Again, I wish you the best in what you’re doing, and may well hook you up for a consultation depending on how my own results go.
Matt
I’m definitely not in any condition to talk to anyone 3 minutes before and 1 minute after a top deadlift set. Nor will anyone go near my 160kg friend Karim. I don’t think it is just you. Sounds like you know what you’re doing. Good luck and let me know how it goes.
Is it worth squatting if the only option is a smith machine? I read somewhere on here that it’s best to stay clear of them.
The best use for a smith machine is to be melted down to be made into two squat racks.
My thoughts too. I use one ONLY for pull ups for which they’re perfect
Hey,
Quick question: I’ve used IF recently, and my new school semester’s schedule really isn’t all that IF friendly. I’m starting a cut, I like this routine for its simplicity, sticking to those movements, and when coupled with IF, the better chance I maintain strength. I was wondering if I could still see the strength retention even without IF? My cut isn’t so big, about 5 pounds in 7 weeks is the goal. I still center calories around workouts, cycle carbs for workout days, and may have fasted (BCAA before) workouts from time to time. Think it’ll make a big difference that I’m not doing IF, or should I look for another program?
People have been cutting using carb cycling for years, IF is a relatively new thing. Go for it. I’d be surprised if you couldn’t fit it in your schedule somewhere though if you prepare a meal in advance.
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Hey,
i am a big fan! I was wondering what shall i do if i play/train football 5 times/week?
Still cycle my carbs and fats? Just one day keep it higher than normal?
Is you’re training as well then keep cycling and timing things around your weight training. In this case very simply: Don’t make the football days training day macros, use a multiplier for your BMR, monitor progress and adjust accordingly after a month.
Even if we are lifting weights ? so i am guessing i just have to eat more higher multiplier. And just leave the football training out and work out 3 times a week and count those as work out day?
thanks for the fast response!
No, day that you hit the gym, football or not, will be t-day macros.
Yes mate.
Hey!
Just loving your site! Great source of practical training information related to IF. You inspired me to try out the IF.
I started to follow the ‘Three Day Split RPT’ Routine. This is my first week. But the problem is that after training day, specially after squats/deadlifts (like today) my leg and back muscles are really-really tired (I almost cannot walk up the stairs). It is not so much soreness but my legs are just really-really tired. So far I have been able to fully recover before next workout day.
My workout today looked like this:
- 5min warmup with cardio machines + some stretches mobility exercises
- Barbell Squats – 32.5×11,62.5×9,62.5×7,52.5×10
- Standing Military Press 10.0×10,32.5×5,27.5×7,22.5×9
- 10min cool-down cardio + some stretching
(i now it is not perfect RPT-style yet, but I am getting there)
Any tips/suggestions?
Yes absolutely. Article on this is imminent.
Here you go buddy. http://rippedbody.jp/2012/01/30/progressing-from-beginner-to-intermediate-training/
Thanks!
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Hello Andy,
compliments for this great site!
I have a quick question: since I play football twice a week, I decided to follow a 2-day routine instead of a 3-day routine cause I’m scared to overtrain. The routine looks like this:
Day A: squat, bench press, chin ups
Day B: deadlift, dips
I was wondering if splitting lower and upper body exercises could be more productive, something like that:
Day A: squat, deadlift
Day B: bench press, chin ups, dips
What do you think about it?
I think the above would be more effective for a two day routine because the Squat will affect the Deadlift if done on the same day.
Thanks a lot for your advice!
Hi Andy
Started leangains this week and went with your workout schedule. I’m a little bit surprised that if I take out warmups,breaks and stretches..at say 60 seconds per exercise I seem to only be doing 5-6 minutes of actual hard work in the gym.
Am I missing something or is this what you advocate
Thanks
Ross
Pretty much exactly right Ross.
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Hi Andy,
Following my exams I’ve been studying Stuart McRobert’s brilliant book Beyond Brawn. With regards to Intermittent Fasting I was wondering if you could answer the following question;
Stuart also recommends a ‘less is more’ approach which you have alluded to on your site – what about body part over-lapping though? Would it be a bad idea to deviate away from 3-day-RPT style, and go for maybe two workouts a week with minimal over-lapping?
You could choose a 2 day plan if time is tight, but for non-advanced lifters 3 days might be better for reasons explained here.
Hi there Andy!
Am thinking of changing to a bulk in the coming month. In my past (prior to LG) I was doing Stronglifts 5×5. I LOVE the RPT set up, but really liked the heavier top set in SL. Was wondering your thoughts on still doing the RPT in the slow bulk, but changing the rep ranges to 4-6, 6-8, 8-10..
By the way, this re-comp has been so much fun
Don’t see a problem with that. Slightly more strength focused.
Good stuff!
Was also wondering if it is still as crucial to stay under the hour on a bulk? or is spilling over okay?
I only ask as the MMA sessions we do range a lot in time depending on what we’re focusing on. Eg class for an hour and then open mat for an hour. Was thinking I could smash some bcaas in between as well if im training fasted.. Sound about right??
The “hour rule” is a rule of thumb for weight training, i.e. diminishing returns after an hour. Your MMA sessions are different. BCAAs needed? Don’t know, probably not.
Cool, thanks again buddy
Hey Andy,
one more question? So i was wondering about the double poundage.
So i understand i need to pick a number for reps and stick to it…
But how about sets? For example squats: if i pick 12-20. ( slowly work my way up to 20 then add weight… )
Shall i do 3 sets of the same weight and reps?
Thanks!!
All sets must be treated independently of each other.
When you reach the top of the rep range then increase the weight.
12-20 is too wide a range, narrow it. 3 rep maximum.
Thank you for the fast response! You mean 3 set maximum right?
Ah, yes sorry.
Last question i promise! Thank you for all the help!
Just wondering about Creatine. It would be a good thing to take it with bcaa for work out? so my question is it would not stop the feast since has no calories right?
No calories no problem.
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Hi Andy,
Had a question for you regarding my current workout regiment which I based on this article.
Currently doing:
Tuesday: Deadlifts RPT style, 2 sets (ie. 405lb x5, 365 x6, drop weight 10% and 1 rep each set, wait 3 min between sets), Bench RPT 3 sets.
Thursday: Press RPT 3 sets, Chins 3 sets (going to failure here, which it sounds like I should not be doing), Weighted dips, 3 sets to failure.
Saturday: Squat RPT 3 sets, Power Cleans 5 sets of 3, some grip work.
Adding weight next time around if I hit 6 good reps.
Am currently ~220lb, 17-18% BF and doing a “cut” (-35/+10). Is there anything you would recommend taking out, or maybe I should add some more in? I know you recommend 6-8 reps, but I am very comfortable with 5, does this seem ok?
Thanks for a great site, read every article here and can’t get enough.
You need to have a read of this article here. There’s no one answer to that.
Andy,
Your site is amazing, so much additional helpful information not found on LG (or only through hours of reading through hundreds of comments etc.). Thanks for putting it together, it’s a gem!
Question: My weeks are busy, hurts my flexibility with training schedule. Mo, Wed, Fri is just no option, I’m going 6am-9/10pm on weekdays. What’s your take on doing Bench and Squat (and consequently carb load) on consecutive days? That would allow e.g. Wed, Sat, Sun schedule for workouts/carb cycling.
Plus: I’ve never stretched – should I?
Would be great to hear your take on this.
Thanks
That is not ideal but would work.
For the stretching, see here mate.
Andy – you are the man! Will play around with schedules a bit. Maybe I’m able to do one workout during the week in the am and one in the evening on non-consecutive days. -Cheers!
Welcome Martin.
Hello Andy,
Why do you and Martin suggested Chin-up instead of Pull-up?
Thanks Karl
The average person doing a pull-up will cheat on the range of motion because it’s hard. They’ll get a better range of motion on the chin-up. I’ve seen this hundreds of times in the gym.
I think Martin’s explanation of why he recommended it was that overall muscle activation is very similar with correct technique, yet the tendency to cheat on range means the chins win out in most cases. (I might have read that somewhere else though.)
Even if someone is good at doing pull-up? Chin-up is still preferred?
I think you missed my point.
I guess I am looking into this too hard and I do understand what you have to say.
There seem to be a debate all over the web on chin-ups vs pull-ups. I have always regard chin-ups as more of a biceps exercise than pull-ups.
Would you agree?
Yes.
Andy, great stuff. Thanks for your efforts. Quick question, if you don’t mind. Osteoarthritis in my shoulders makes bench press very painful. Are floor presses an acceptable substitute?
Sure. Dips are a good option too. It all depends.
Hello,
I have been following RPT for a few months and have been achieving fantastic results but I am in a bit of a dilemma right now. This past weekend, I pulled a tendon in my finger while playing basketball. Because of this, I have to wear a splint in my left middle finger for the next 6-8 weeks. The problem is that now, I cannot fully grip anything in my left hand which makes deadlifts and OHP impossible. I do not know if I can still bench but squats are not an issue. My question is, do you have any suggestions as to what I can do in the gym? The problem is if I go too heavy, my grip becomes and issue. Should I just focus more on dumbbell type exercises? I guess my biggest concern is that I don’t want to lose the muscle I have worked so hard to achieve.
Andy is one warm up set enough or should I add more warm up in front and take volume off the RPT? see below example:
Monday: BP (115×6, 205×3, 195×5, 190*x6) IBP (115×6, 185×4, 175×5, 170×6, 165×7, 135×10) Dips (BW+65×4, BW+55×4, BW+45×5
Wednesday: Deads (135×8, 230×5, 255×4, 270×3, 310×2, 330*x1) Chins (BWx6, BW+60×2.5, BW+50×3, BW+40×5, BW+30×6 ss=8) Rows (95×10, 110×8, 125×6, 130×5)
Friday ATG Squats (45×5, 115×6, 210×3, 200×4, 190×5, 180×6, 135×11)
It depends on the individual. Generally those newer to training need less. I’m not particularly strong, but I am creaky for a 28 year old, so I have a lot of warm-up sets. The key is to keep the number of reps low so that you don’t tire yourself out before the top set. Always do the minimum that you need.
Should i be doing the same weight each week or increase as the weeks progress? I did not see anything on hear about it or just stick to the top set, -10, and -10?
Yes, progressive increases in poundage are the goal.
Not including warm sets or 5-10min cooldown…this RPT routine seems to take 10-15 minutes…is that right?
The actual ball busting main sets will take that long if it’s just one exercise yes. But if you’re advanced enough to just be doing one exercise (like squats for example) per session then you’re going to be needing plenty of warm-ups, stretching etc.
Andy,
I am not that strong yet, but i can do good form by doing bench press, and my top set is 125lbs. Should my warm up sets would be like this:
70×5, 85×5,95×5,115×4 = is this correct?
cheers,
dmitry
No buddy. That’s too fatiguing. Reread the example please.
Andy,
thank you for prompt response.
dmitry
andrew just wondering what you think of this for an intermediate/advanced split (for bulking/bodybuilding):
A back and biceps day: deadlift (RPT), chins (RPT), a row (SS), a biceps curl (SS)
A chest and triceps day: bench (RPT), an incline or dips (RPT), dips or an incline (SS), a tricep extension (SS)
A legs and shoulders day: squat (RPT), standing military (RPT), leg press (SS), a calf raise (SS)
SS = starting strength progression system, all sets with same weight
Take out the leg press and row, concentrate on progressive poundage increases rather than pain and DOMS, and it looks fine. More fundamentally though what you have there is a full body day, an upper body day and a full body day. You’ll do better in the long term to think of your body as a unit rather than pieces.
Just for fun I’ll give you one of my favourite Rippetoe quotes:
More wisdom can be found here.
I will take your word for this, however Martin recommends rows on his blog… Which I find contradictory
In ‘Reverse Pyramid Revisited’:
“Ok, done with chins and time for some Pendlay Rows; here, do not use the RPT set structure, rather take your 7 RM and do sets of 5 using the Starting Strength principles. At this point you should be fairly fatigued, so no more RPT.”
Although I have tried Deads and Rows in the same workout, and you become significantly weaker on the rows because your lower back is just torched… so I’m not arguing your point
Hi Andy,
Cool website, I found you through fitocraty.
I’ve been doing reverse pyramid for a while and on the big 3, my second (and sometimes third) set is catching up with my first.
Ex: Say I started like :
set 1 : 200 x 4-5
set 2: 180x 4-5
set 3 : 165x 4-5
10% difference between each. However after a while, by keeping in mind to “move up” when I hit the end of the range (5 in the example), I arrive at something like
set 1: 300x 4-5
set 2 : 290x 4-5
set 3 : 285x 4-5
Is that to be expected, or should we always try to keep the -10% between the different set.
(I have not yet hit a plateau in strength progression with this progression but I’m curious)
Thanks
All sets should move independently, 10% is just a guide.
Hey man,
thx for awsome website.
I have few question about the training.
Iam on leangains a iam searching for some trainging to it.
This looks like nice but…
As u wrote above :
Day 1 : deadlift and weighted chin-ups
Day 2 : Bench and push-ups
Day 3 : squats
Now my questions:
Is it enough to whole muscle progress ? I know u said is it, but anyways if iam not a novice what exercise i may add and when.
What u think about one more exercise ones a week for my weak parties like biceps,triceps…?
What do u think about crossfits, complexs, tabatas at non-workout day ?
Thanks for awswers.
Sorry for my bad english i hope u understood all.
And what about shoulder exercise ? Should i add some, what kind of and when ? Thx a lot
Depends.
Laci, sorry mate but there’s too many questions here with too many answers. It really depends.
1. Enough muscle progress? Yes.
2. Crossfit etc. Is a compromise.
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Andy, I love your website. Really helped me make sense of all the LG stuff. I am currently on week 12 of Stronglifts. Do squats everyday, then alternating one day of bench/DL, two days of DL/bench every week. Great progress, havent stalled, lifting more than I did in high school when I played football, and have lost about 30lbs(currently hovering around 250lb), but a lot of fat left to cut. Even though I continue to make gains every sessions, after reading your stuff, I feel like switching to a RPT style would hopefully provide a better aid in my fat loss. My question is after reading your articles on “The Big 3″ and “Three Day split” would it be more beneficial for me to switch to “The Big 3″ first, adding bench and DL to each work, for 12 weeks, then transition to a “3 day split” or is one more beneficial than the other?
It all depends on your recovery capacity. Please see this article and note the further points about recovery in here.
Hi Andy,
Im in that stage between beginner and intermediate and I want to shed some body fat before I start a leangains style slow bulk.
Would you suggest the above split for a cut or a modified big 3 routine?
Either. Depends on your recovery capacity.
Hello Andy,
what about doing this training routine in FASTED STATE ? For example after 15-16 hours of tasting ? 10g BCAAs is enough before training ?
Thx a lot
Yes
Andy,
Firstly may i praise your fantastic efforts, knowledge and straight forward, no nonsense advice to anyone and everyone who has the privilege to be a member here. And i would like to thank you for all you advice…
I am trying to get my girlfriend into a similar routine and get her to ditch running for 3 hours on a treadmill! Luckily she hates going to the gym so the minimal time in the gym line worked well!
She has never done any heavy lifting, where should she start…
She works 4 days on (12hours) 4 days off, which is also a problem. My thoughts are…
First day off:- light deadlifts, leg extensions and chins. (highER carb low fat)
Second day off:- Press Ups (until she can bench), assisted pull ups. (highER carb low fat)
Third day off – rest (low carb highER fat)
Fourth Day off:- Squats, walking lunges and overhead press (highER carb low fat)
(This routine is off Leangains!)
First and second day at work:- rest (low carb highER fat)
Third day at work:- rest (highER carb low fat to maintenance calories)
Fourth day at work – rest (low carb highER fat)
Your thoughts would be appreciated as i am only guessing here…
Starting strength and the diet set-up advised in the diet sections. Nothing changes because she is a woman in the context of this general set-up. At the moment you are complicating things unnecessarily, which is not only sub-optimal, but will lead her to say “wtf?” and quit in confusion.
Well she is saying exactly that! Its difficult due to the 12 hour work days, 4 days on 4 days off…
Andy,
I’m starting a pretty aggressive cut (-40%/0%) and I’d say I’m an advanced beginner/beginning intermediate trainee (been training intelligently for about 9 months now following a slightly modified “Starting Strength”, my 4 RMs are .8xbw on the bench, 1.4xbw on deadlift, 1.2x bw on squat). I’ve just decided to change to RPT to lower the volume/frequency for the cut, and posting my planned routine below. Basically I’m doing the “big” lifts reverse pyramid style, and the “assistance” exercises in 3 sets of 5 reps at a fixed weight, and progressing whenever I can complete the 3 sets. I’m fortunate enough to have fairly good recovery capacity even with lower calorie levels, as a result of being an 18 year old boy.
Would you be able to point out any potential flaws with my routine in terms of lifts selected or rep ranges? I’d really appreciate it.
Monday: Deadlifts 4 reps, 6 reps. Chins 6 reps, 8 reps, 12 reps. Bench 6 reps, 8 reps, 12 reps. Calves 3X5.
Wednesday: Overhead press 6 reps, 8 reps, 12 reps. Front Squat 3X5. Dips 3X5. Dumbbell rows 3×5. Romanian Deadlift 3X5.
Friday: Squats 6 reps, 8 reps, 12 reps. Bench 6 reps, 8 reps, 12 reps. Chins 6 reps, 8 reps, 12 reps. Rear Delt Fly 3X5.
Thanks for your time!
What you’ve got there is good, but too much volume. -But you knew I was going to say that. Do yourself a favor and buy a copy of Beyond Brawn.
Definitely drop those dumbbell rows.
Huh, I was actually worried about the opposite (not enough assistance). I’d still like to keep in some type of rowing, but I’ll probably drop them down to 1 max effort set.
Thanks for the input!
Andy is calf work worth it or not in you opinion? My leg day looks like this Squats, Stiff Leg Deads, Shrugs, Standing Barbell Calf Raises (thinking of dropping)
That’s completely up to you mate. Some people care a lot about their calves. I know Arnie did, as he got in a shouting match with the owner of Mr U’s gym just down the road at one of the 1970′s Mr Universe competitions. Arnie asked him what the secret was to his big calves and wouldn’t believe him when he told him just something very ordinary. -But then again he was a professional.
The real answer, calves are stubborn as shit to training stimulus and will give you a lot of pain when walking for very little growth in return so I don’t bother, but his Japanese genes are/were the reason for his huge calves.
Just found this on youtube from one of those Mr Universe comps. Shigeru Sugita Fun when drunk, terrible singer though.
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I’m considering using this program for my LG diet. But can you explain the push-ups? I’d already be doing the bench for the pecs, why add another exercise? Would replacing them with something for the side delts be wise?
If you feel you don’t need the pushups then there is no need to do them, it’s just an optional finished. Whether you need to/should hit the side felt really depends on the rest of your program, your current condition, and priorities. It’s not a big deal either way, as it’s a very small muscle group so won’t add anything to overall CNS fatigue really, so feel free to put it in there if you decide that’s what’s best.
Hi Andy,
First of all, thank you for a great site and for filtering down the pretty complex science from Leangains.com. I personally think that your site is easier to comprehend, as I’m not being an expert nutritionist.
I do however have a question for you regarding the three day split which I am using (and following almost to the letter). It’s working very well and I have good progress.
But I do lack progress on my chins. After a set of deadlift on Mondays, I’m pretty fatigued when I start the chins. So I am wondering if it would be suitable to change the chins on monday for push-ups and vice versa? On the other hand, I’m just as fatigued after a set of bench-presses on Wednesdays…
Today:
Monday: 1) Deadlift 2) Chins
Wednesday: 1) Bench Press 2) Push-ups
Friday: 1) Squat 2) OH-press
Change to:
Monday: 1) Deadlift 2) Push-ups
Wednesday: 1) Bench Press 2) Chins
Friday: 1) Squat 2) OH-press
I see an advantage in changing because then I will have one push and one pull exercise on Monday/Wednesday as opposed to now where I have only pulls on Monday and pushes on Wednesday.
So…I’m kinda confused here because I don’t want to tamper too much with the routine. I’m hoping that you maybe could help me out.
Again, thanks for a great site and keep up the good work.
If all the rest of your lifts are improving then firstly, good work, don’t get down about it. As for whether you should switch, this is simply a case of try it and see. There will be elements of fatigue that will carry over from the deadlift day and possibly hinder chins on your bench day. So there’s pro’s and con’s.
Thank you very much for a quick answer. I guess you´re right; as long as I’m improving on the big three lifts there’s really no need to worry. But I can’t help thinking that there must be a thought about putting chins on deadlift day. And if so; what and why?
Bet regards
Of course you can. Try it and see. If it affects the other lifts then jack it.
Hi Andy and thanks for a very interesting webpage and complement to Martin’s blog !
I’ve taken the LG method to heart and started out on my journey, but the thing I find more note of here rather than what i did on Martin’s blog is that you really, really, try to apply the 3 day split training per 7 day cycle.
My problem with this is that I really LOVE hitting the gym as I do now. I have a workout schedule for 6 day cycles. Weight-lifting 5 of these and going for cardio(intervals) on the 6th day.
I’m at the stage where I’m at approx 12-13% bodyfat but I want to get ripped.
Would you say that it’s not possible doing it the LG-style with this heavy workload or is there somehow a way for me to keep my schedule and still getting ripped using this diet method?
Many thanks in advance for your assistance, and I bet some others might find this useful as well
Best regards
Stefan
If you have a read here then you’ll understand why it’s not suited to training 6 days a week.
Hi and thanks again.
So If I understand the article correctly, the main reason I should not keep doing this is because of my CNS?(Just ta make sure I really understand your opinion correctly) It will not matter how well I split my schedule and if I let my muscles recover, since my CNS is taking a little beatup from the diet as well ?
That, and you won’t be able to cycle your carbs as per the usual LG set-up (to time them with your workouts) as this will give you too many consecutive surplus days. You could cycling but putting two of your less taxing training days on a “rest day” in terms of the diet.
I see, my thought was to put the low carbs days on cardio day and another day where I also have lower carb needs, but might not be enough.
Will try to cycle the carbs 3 of the days and listen very carefully to my body in terms of recovery and see where it takes me.
Thank you soo much for some really good advice and a great blog/webpage!
Have a good one!
Hi Andy,
First, to echo everyone else, many thanks for putting such a detailed and exciting website on IF and LG type training and lifestyle!
I have some questions on your warm up sets, if I count correctly you squat 46 times before you start your top set? Ok 25 times is just with the bar… but still that seems quite a high number which might impact your top set performance?
Do you warm up on chins with bodyweight and again does that not negatively impact your top set?
Many thanks,
Alex
Alex think about it mate:
Squatting with an empty bar, in the majority of men’s cases is likely to be less than 25% of 1RM. In my case less than 15%. This is not going to impact performance.
Chinning bodyweight will be certainly be more than 50% of even superman’s 1RM. For the average RPT loving trainee this will likely be 70-90% of their 1RM.
I warm up with chins yes, but sparingly. Just a few reps for a couple of sets and I usually don’t have it as the first exercise of the day.
Hi, Ive been following the guidelines set by your website for a few months, with moderate results. As far as workouts are concerned, I’ve gained much strength but hardly any mass. I do all of your compound excersizes (except press which I can’t do for medical reasons), and I throw in some other more conventional excersizes.
What I wanted to ask you is: Given that I train every morning, is it just as effective to split my routine into 2 parts and do each of the two programs every other day, or is it better if the program is split into 3, giving 2 days of rest between each specific workout?
The goal being allowing just enough recovery time before excersising a muscle group again.
Additional data that might affect your advice: Im 18, have medium experience in lifting (very shaped for my age, but I’m no bodybuilder), and I also do archery training 3 times a week
Thanks for your advice
There’s no single answer to that question mate. Firstly read this article I wrote specifically noting the points on recovery. Then go to amazon and buy yourself a copy of Starting Strength and Beyond Brawn. Thirdly thank me in a month when you’re happy with your new awesome purchases.
Ooops! I meant to quote you on Bench for comparison!
“1. Bench
Warm-up sets
Top Set 6-8reps
3mins rest
Set 2 (-10-15%) 8-10
2mins rest
Set 3 (-10-15%)10-12
3mins rest”.
Those rep ranges are even higher than the 3 sets of 4-6 listed on the FAQ for the bench example. Especially in light of the formula from the FAQ
“X # of reps for Z weight. Next set, do (Z-10%) weight for X+1 reps. Next set, do (Z-20%) for X+2 ”
Following the above formula using your numbers for bench would put you at:
Set 1: 6 reps
Set 2: 7 reps (1 rep below the 8-10 range you suggested)
Set 3: 8 reps ( 2 reps below the 10-12 range you suggested)
A follow up question.
Assuming increased strength is the goal, would it be safe to say that the following rep ranges would be best for the top set on the following exercises?
Deadlift: 3-5 reps
Squat: 3-5 reps
Bench: 4-6 reps
Weighted Chins: 4-6 reps
Press: 5-7 reps
I apologize for being so anal about all this Andy. I am not a novice to weight training (40 years experience), but I am new to the leangains approach. As you and I have discussed both here and on your Facebook page, I lost strength on my first attempt at a cut. I’m just trying to dial this all in so that I can have a successful experience with this as I go forward.
I do realize that, short of hiring a trainer, this is going to require experimentation and fine tuning on my end.
I hope I’m not bothering you by seeking clarification on some issues. I do try to read as much as I can of what you have posted before asking my silly questions!
John, minor minor details. If you’ve been training for 40 years then you know that lower rep ranges have a more strength focus, and higher rep ranges more of a hypertrophy focus. So make a choice and just do it.
that is true. It looks like the routine was a bit of a hybrid to me and was just curious as to your reasoning for incorporating various rep ranges. Your answer is what I was suspecting.
Make choice about whether to use the routine that incorporates both, or a choice to go with higher or lower reps?
The doing it part I have no problem with ( 40 years worth of training logs). But if I mess around with something I like to make informed decisions. Thanks again.
Make a choice, exactly.
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Being short on time-can you just clarify, it is just 1 set on the pyramid yes? as stated:
Wednesday
1. Bench
Warm-up sets
Top Set 6-8reps
3mins rest
Set 2 (-10-15%) 8-10
2mins rest
Set 3 (-10-15%)10-12
3mins rest
THEN MOVE ONTO PUSHUPS, NOT REPEAT THE BENCH???
2. Push-ups (2 sets, 3 mins rest. Raise feet off floor when too easy. 15-20reps)
IVE BEEN DOING AROUND 40-50 ELEVATED PUSHUPS AS 15-20 DOESNT REALLY TEST ME AT ALL AS I HAVE LOW BODY WEIGHT AND PUSHUPS ARE A STRONG POINT OF MINE. I PRESUME THIS IS TO GIVE A JIST AND YOU WORK IT AROUND YOURSELF?
Sorry if this is already in here somewhere but whenever I get chance to check your site I have around 5 mins spare so appologies if its contained somewhere in here….
Scotty
1. Correct.
2. Put your feet up on a stool for the pushups to make them harder. If you can go over 20 then you need to put your feet higher.
Hey Andy,
Just wondered in your thoughts with throwing in some stretching and flexibility with a two day split. I’m looking at yoga or pilates classes in Birmingham, but wanted some guidance on how it sits with you. I’ve got friends going to Hot Yoga, which just looks like a dehydration room to make people feel like they’ve lost weight when in fact all they’ve done is sweat. I’d rather sweat over my barbell.
I would like to be more flexible though…
Your thoughts, as always, are massively appreciated.
Matt
Stretching is fine mate.
Do you think adding a shoulder movement such as shoulder DB press would be beneficial on squat only days?
Cheers
Depends on your recovery capacity.
Hey Andy great tip on chins and not going to failure. My chins have plateaud while my other lifts increase, so you may just well be my saviour
Out of interest what’s your opinion on close grip chin-up for someone who’s reasonably proficient at standard grip (6 x 25kg). They are mentioned a lot in lean gains circles and if you were to include them (if at all) would you alternate them between workouts or simply add them as a set to your standard chin day?
Keep up the sterling work!
I’d stick with one and keep it that way. You can do shoulder width or closer grip, or parallel grip if you’re feeling any elbow pain. It’s all good.
So… this is a good choice?
Monday: Deadlift / Chin-ups / Front Squat (Light)
Wednesday: Bench Press / Dips / Hyperextensions BW
Friday: Squat / OHP / Hanging Leg Raises
2 first exercises of each day with low reps (3-5 reps p/set).
I’m in a cut (-30/+10), but I want to make strenght gains (or minimize strenght loss).
Thank you
Yes that could be a good choice.
ok, thanks for you response
Hi Andy, in your opinion is it more beneficial to squat ATG with less weight or parallel with more weight? Just wondering your perspective, personally I’ve been doing ATG for a while now
As deep as your flexibility allows without “butt-wink” is a good idea. Here’s a Ripptoe article.
Haven’t read that one yet Andy – great stuff!
I see that cooldown cardio is named on every workout day, but I can’t see any examples of cooldown cardio. Is walking on the treadmill with elevation enough as cooldown cardio or is there any better alternative?
Anything you want mate. It’s a cool down, so don’t make yourself sweat more.
Great website! Really appreciate what you’ve added to Martin’s LG & RPT foundation. One thing I’m confused with is how to progress with the “back-off-sets.” I was hoping you might be able to help me understand.
I’m not getting why in your example you increased the weight from 145 to 150 on the second set of week 6 when you only got 8 reps at 145. You got 8 reps of 140 on your second set of Week 3 and did not increase weight. I’ve been trying to figure out the progression on the “back-off-sets” but am not seeing consistent rule applications on Leangains or here. I’d appreciate any and all help to clarify. Thanks.
Here’s what you wrote:
“An example of a squat progression with target rep ranges 6-8, 8-10, 10-12:
Week 1: 150 x 6, 135 x 9, 120 x 12
Week 2: 150 x 8, 135 x 10, 125 x 10
Week 3: 155 x 6, 140 x 8, 125 x 11
Week 4: 155 x 6, 140 x 10, 125 x 11
Week 5: 155 x 8, 145 x 8, 125 x 12
Week 6: 160 x 6, 150 x 6*, 130 x 10″
[*typo which has been edited in the main post to "145 x 9" -Andy.]
I’m just focusing on the second set, i.e. the first set AFTER the top set. Note the discrepancy between hitting 8 reps and not moving up in weight on Week 3 and yet hitting 8 reps and moving up on week 6 after only hitting 8 reps on week 5.
Typo, thanks. I’ll correct it now.
However if you could do that then you should.
Thanks for your prompt reply.
But it wouldn’t even be within the recommended rep range (8-10) for the second set. Pushing so hard on your drop-sets seems counter to what Martin recommends when he says to stop at reps in top-set+1 for your second set. Combining the messages of: a.) push yourself hard to avoid fuckarounditis and b.) avoid maxing out on your drop-sets — create a bit of cognitive dissonance for me. It makes it difficult to know when to increase weight by some metric other than “when you feel like it”.
Thom, I’m sorry I don’t understand mate. If you hit the top of your target rep range, you increase. Very clear rules, nothing is “when you feel like it”. Have another look and see if it’s clearer. I’ve edited the example as I said.
Hi, many times on the comments you recommend hill sprints. Why did you select this exercise as an alternative for some people? Thx
Good for people with back issues to work the legs without loading the spine or ricking injury with a leg press if that’s unavailable.
Andy – what are your thoughts on grip for deads…I’m getting to the point where my body’s strength is beating my grip strength (wt 150lbs, 1rm 385, 345×4). Ok to cross grip to pull it? or stick with standard and try to hang on?
Over under grip is fine. Quite standard.
Thanks Andy
Hello Andy, i have one question
if i train from 09:00 to 10:30 – 11:00 with 10g BCAA before, i need to take another 10g after workout if i have protein and post workout meal at 12:00 ? thx
50/50
50/50 means its better to get or not ?
coz of price for BCAAs…20g daily is expensive for me :/
Don’t bother with that post-workout portion then.
Personally, i cannot see the difference in performance with bcca and without.
Is this normal or my body is just different? I use same bcca as martin recommends.
You won’t necessarily notice it physically. As in the mornings when your body is using free-fatty acids for fuel rather than glucose, you don’t notice the change in energy source switch.